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» The kid thing from All This....
Jody over at Raising WEG just wrote a brilliant post about whether childhood is an individual pursuit rather than a collective responsibility. She argues very persuasively for the collective responsibility. I've felt similarly for a long time, since we... [Read More]

Comments

sarah

What a great post. This coffee shop thing has been bugging me, but I have been unable to express how children are part of the community without justifying bad bahvior. Or going on an inane rant about how I'd never let me kids do that. That's not the point. It often feels unfriendly to raise children. Thank you for expanding on implications of this attitude.

Maria

Great points. As a single mom I especially appreciate the reminder that it ought to be a communal exercise, at least to some degree, and that it's not necessarily a Bad Thing About Me if I am unable to perform every single parenting function every single day. It's more than a one – or even two – person job.

Jennifer

What a great post. I've been reflecting on this public: private thing for a while with children.

I read recently (but I'm sorry I can't remember where) that in Germany children have much more freedom to go places, but the flipside of that is that adults anywhere feel quite within their rights to discipline children who are not their own.

That's the hard part; you do have to give up some individual liberty (for yourself or your children) to have society feel invested in your children as anything but annoyances (or at least that's my take of your contrast between the kind old woman and the interfering old biddy).

swissmiss

If Germany is like Switzerland, then Jennifer is right. One of the things I like about living here is that I can take the Small Boy with me (almost) anywhere. I certainly do go to coffee shops and the occasional lunch out with my girl friends. I wheel him around the downtown, go shopping, and clunk the stroller into trams and buses. Ninety percent of the time, if I'm alone, a person will even help me - unasked - navigate the stroller up into the tram (not all buses and trams here are wheelchair accessible - usually just two or three per hour per route - and the old ones are pretty awkward to get in and out of). I seem more concerned/self-conscious about his noise level than most of the people around me - which only goes to show that you can take the girl out of America, but you can't take America out of the girl, I guess. So far strangers haven't commented negatively on his behavior, but so far we've been either lucky in the meltdown department or, when the meltdown comes, we depart soon thereafter.

My son was born in Switzerland, so I have yet to be a parent in the States, but from what I can tell the biggest difference seems to be that everybody just accepts it as pretty normal that kids are here there and everywhere. I suppose if he were melting down in a fancy expensive place we might get the Evil Eye - just a guess, since we haven't tried that yet - but in your day to day restaurant or coffee shop people seem to take the presence of children as a matter of course. Demographic groups are all mixed up here - a family might live next to a university student and down the block from an elder home (that's a description of us, actually) so the corner coffee shop is going to see a mix of clients. And everybody seems to accept - or flat out ignore - the presence of everybody else.

It's nice. I never feel like I'm someplace I "shouldn't be" or that I'm isolated in the mommy-ghetto.

I can't even imagine a sign like that in a coffee shop here. How rude.

Jen (yup, another one)

Wow. Nice job. I think my brain is melting and I haven't even got kids yet. I used to be able to really think about things and analyze them below the surface. Now it seems I just sort of take them at face value a lot of the time. Thanks for a deep, thoughful (& even self-critical) analysis of this "story" and its larger place in our world.

Phantom Scribbler

Thank you, Jody. That was brilliant.

Why do any of us even read the New York Times anymore?

liz

Sing it, Jody!

Ally

I am always astounded when I hear that people have a choice to have children and therefore just have to suck it up and live with their lot in life.

Uh, propagation of the species, anyone?

I've written about this on my blog a few times. It is an ongoing concern of mine. I don't understand why this country is so anti-family in its policies and in its attitudes. Well, I guess I understand, but I don't have to like it.

Sandy

Wow. It's like how Judith Stadtman Tucker and Miriam Peskowitz helped me see that my (reluctant) decision to SAH full-time was pretty much caused by a lack of options (some opt-out); a social condition perhaps unique to our culture.

It doesn't just take a village, it takes a village that gives a damn.

But your best line: Temper tantrums are sexy. ROFL.

Genevieve

Really terrific post.

JustAGirl

Interesting point you've made here, about raising children as part of a community and about how lonely it might be to be a mother in today's society. I also agree that there are probably thousands of untold stories about the joys and struggles of parents. There are many good arguments in your posting.

I do, however, disagree with you about the nature of this NY Times story. I don't think anyone would be so foolish as to think this is news. I hardly believe that anyone (including the author) would equate this piece with the Iraq War or Hurricane Katrina survivor stories. Those are critical issues and they need the focus and attention of journalists and the readers. There is a place, however, for non-news items in newspapers, online news journal, and blogs. How depressing would it be if we focused on nothing but dire emergencies. Try that sometime and see how long before you want to toss yourself out a window. (Been there, done that, it's not healthy.)

I, personally, have a need for balance and I think that's pretty common and also very healthy. Give me the urgent news stories, yes, but also give me the NY Times Book Review and the funnies. I also need to decompress with hollywood nonsense. These all have a place in my day but I know the proper priority and I don't lose that perspective if cave in to my craving for a moment of levity or non-urgent, non-news items.

Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions and I do respect yours.

Lilian

This post is EXCELLENT! I linked to it in my latest post.

I just wanted to let you know that I recently added you to my blogroll, OK?

Denise

Good post. I missed the NYT article about coffee shops in Chicago, but I saw a similar one about resentment engendered by big strollers. Seems like some editor thinks the tension between people with children and people without is ripe for mining. I take two-year-old out to restaurants and coffee shops all the time, though -- sometimes even in New York and Chicago! -- and I get much more of a "village that gives a damn" feeling than "child-free people shooting daggers with their eyes" feeling.

Of course, my child is always perfectly behaved. And when he's not it's definitely not my fault.

chris

I love it. Well said.

Emmie

Brilliant post. You got me thinking and I referenced it in my last post - thanks for the inspiration. I always enjoy reading your blog.

lacalda

I just got back from a week at Disney...which, well... back on track here:

While waiting for a bus, a 7 year old girl struck up a conversation with me and my 3 year old. Her brother, who was about 10, joined in, and then my husband joined in. The little girl wanted to see something in our video camera, and my husband showed her. Her parents looked up from the park map they were reviewing, and joined the conversation, including my child. We all chatted and visited the whole bus ride to the park and then all went our separate ways when we got there.

As we parted, the mother said to me:
"It was nice to meet you."
I complimented her on her children's manners and conversational skills.
She says:
"Its so sad that Disney is the only place you can let them talk to strangers, isn't it?"

Yes, it is, because those kids really enjoyed meeting each other, and I really enjoyed telling the little girl about Colonial Williamsburg (close to our home, I go there often-- she is entranced with American Girls right now and had lots of questions.) Its good for little boys aged 10 to get a chance to be polite to a 3 year old little girl.
Too bad it "can only happen at Disney." (where I guess the implied upper-middle class status of everyone persent makes strangers safe.)

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