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I was just catching up on blogs and discovered Moxie's contribution to the conversation about women, partnership, and weight.  Because the gradations of meaning appear to be very important to people (especially the author of Morphing Into Mama , who sparked the debate), I want to be very clear that what follows are my very rapid reactions to statements whose meanings rang bells in my head as I sped through posts.  And the ringing noise undoubtedly affected my paraphrasing.

First, I think MIM is wrong to attribute all non-medically-induced weight gain outside the normal getting-older range to depression, a lack of self-respect, or poor self-esteem.  Or, to answer the question raised in MIM's post: "And if a person who used to be thin became very overweight and did nothing about it, wouldn’t you feel like that person was losing their self-respect?  Again, assuming they had no medical condition."  No.  Emphatically, defiantly, no.  I wouldn't have the least bit of information to know one way or the other.  Sometimes gaining weight is a sign of improved self-esteem -- and not just when one was underweight at the outset.

As Moxie points out far more eloquently than I could, stress and our mental responses to stress affect our eating habits, too.  And exercise that comes naturally to single people gets very hard for parents to find.  And I'll also point out that I don't believe we are our bodies, and that there's a difference between living well in the body you have, and trying to make your body into something it was, or should be, so that it looks better to other people.  It's been my experience that it's not any more work to learn to love your body as it becomes.

But it's true that I don't have a dog in this fight, because (a) most of my weight gain came from insulin imbalance and infertility-related hormone treatments; and (b) I eat too much over the course of a normal day because I use food as an excuse to disengage from the kids for a minute, or a half-hour.  So on the one hand, I'm exempt from the discussion because the forty pounds I'd like to lose are the result of medical conditions (although I believe the implication has been made that I should lose the infertility weight, since I believe I read that losing pregnancy weight was a marital obligation).  And on the other hand, I don't have a healthy relationship with food (never mind my body: why do people persist in getting the two confused?).

Also, Calder doesn't care about my weight.  Even though he started dating me when I was fifty pounds lighter (and sixteen years younger), Calder still considers me an attractive women to take out among his colleagues.  I'm sure my resume and my ease at a dinner table (Calder tends toward the withdrawn in public) help my public status in his eyes.  I'm acutely aware that I'm almost always the heaviest woman in the room, but Calder has never expressed anything but pleasure in my company when we're out together.  Especially when we're out with his colleagues, in fact.  No offense to the colleagues' wives who read this blog, but Calder thinks he did pretty well in that regard.

As for the sexual attractiveness issue ... well, the word voluptuous has been used in approving tones, recently.  Very recently.

So I also reject the idea that all men are most attracted to a certain body image, or -- more particularly -- that they're only or best attracted to the body image of the person they marry, at the moment they get married.  To digress, there are some brain studies that show a particular chemical reaction to love that only lasts about 18 months.  After that, we're on our own to re-create the "love high," and who's to say that all men require their wives to maintain a certain body type for them to re-create the high?  There can be a lot of joy in new discoveries.

Also, bigger boobs.

Still and all, I'd like to lose forty pounds.  I'd love to be a size ten again, which is what I was, back in my mid-130s (I'm 5'8").  I'd love to have a tummy tuck and a boob lift, because hello, triplet pregnancy under my belt (literally).  I'd love not to feel like the largest woman in the room.

I don't believe, however, that my fundamental feelings about myself -- about my desire to be enaged with my children, or my ideas about my self-worth, or even my confidence that I can be hired for a tenure-track job someday -- would change if I lost the weight.  I'd get to wear better clothes.  (Can someone explain why the perfectly lovely structured looks in size 14 aren't made for size 16?  Heavier bodies need more structure, not less.  It's insane.)  I'd have more energy at the end of the day, because right now, I'm carrying forty extra pounds -- that's an entire one of my kids, and they're heavy -- on my frame.  I'd come in for less judgemental disregard from women who think other people's thighs say something important about their selves.

Although -- at least being overweight saves me having to find out who the not-my-type folks are a little faster.

But I bet my overall self-image probably wouldn't budge.  How do I know this?  Because my mom weighed 300 pounds until she was 35 years old.  She lost 165 pounds -- on her own, mind you, using nothing more than a food diary and a lot of exercise -- divorced my father, and set about trying to find happiness.  And it turns out, my mom's body wasn't her self.  It wasn't even close.

Your body isn't your self.  Your relationship with food isn't your relationship with your body.  There are many ways to be attractive, and they don't remain static over time.  And the thinner women in our neighborhood?  I'm pretty sure at least two of them are anorexic.  Anything is better than an eating disorder.

Comments

[Rayne of Terror]

I'm a regular reader of MIM's since she started her blog. I normally find her so incisive, but this post was like a punch to the gut for me. It was such an emotional reaction I haven't been able to put what I think into words. I loved how Moxie started her post, but not so sure about the conclusion. A lot of what you say rings true for me. Though I've thought about MIM's post a lot I haven't commented anywhere b/c I'm so conflicted about my own weight. I mind my weight. I miss how great I felt (physically and mentally) when I worked out regularly and ate for enjoyment and health and not to fill an emotional void. But I miss a lot of things about my life pre-child. Being a fit person is just one aspect.

[Ally]

I'm really impressed by yours and by Moxie's responses to this. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and for some reason the only reply I can choke out is along the lines of "gugh."

[Meira Voirdire]

Well put! Thank you.

[mamacate]

This is an awesome discussion. I may blog about it, since I've been obsessing about my weight on the blog lately, and you know, my bad. Because though I need to exercise more for my health (the IR/hyperandrogenism stuff is causing new problems), I've been intellectually lazy in using that whole girly "OMG! I'm soooooooooo FAT!" kind of talk, and it's not good.

Thanks for the reminder. And go you, you hot mama (from someone who is partnered with a hot mama who's not a stick figure).

[Moxie]

Rayne, you mean the non-conclusion? I'm not so happy with how I ended up not being able to think my way out of this one, either.

Good post. I think, though, that for many women an eating disorder *is* better than being fat. What a shame.

[Jackie]

i've had this discussion with myself a lot-- health trouble AND and twin pregnancy have put me only ten pounds over my pre-wedding weight, but you would think it was five times that, from the amount I think about it. I worry about my husband's reaction/inner thoughts, even though he's never said one negative word about it. ridiculous, part of me knows, but then the other part of me doesn't think i owe it to him to lose the weight. i do owe it to myself to think about my emotional relationship to food and also to my own body.

definitely food for thought, all puns intended.

[Phantom Scribbler]

I can only say how glad I am that Twisty took this one on before my head exploded.

[Sarah]

It's a great post, but I think it was only the size 16 clothes thing that sparked a comment from me. So true. Size 16 is an evil evil size. I hated that size...too small for the 'women's' clothing really. And just felt hopelessy fat in the 'misses' clothing. I don't think my body shape changed much with a 10-15 pound weight loss, but going back to the land of size 12. That was worth it. And as I am dealing with weight creep right now, size 16 and all of its frustrations may be my only true motivation to get back to the gym more often and put down all of those yummy comfort foods. Good luck.

[Julie]

My love for you is both voluptuous and highly structured.

Thank you for this post.

[carosgram]

You said it so well.

[Dolley]

The love of my life said something very poignant and very thoughtful to me about my weight issues, and my first husband:
“It’s not what you intended, but you gave him the stick to beat you with.”

And it’s true. My husband knew I had weight issues, and was someone who always, always found something wrong with the way I looked, and was quick to point it out. Between the 3 hours a day I was no longer going to the gym (because I was taking care of him), and the steroids for my asthma, I gained weight. The refrain I heard constantly was, “ … when you get back in shape …”

One year I discovered martial arts. I loved it, and got the !$#@ beat out of me. I started lifting weights, just to survive being beat up by the very large guys I was working with. I was at the gym anywhere from 3 to 7 hours a day, except Sunday. I didn’t diet, but I lost a lot of weight because I was working out like an Olympic contender. A lot of the weight that I had was now muscle weight. I wound up wearing a size 4; sometimes a 6, sometimes a 2, depending on the cut. You know what my husband said? “This isn’t the shape I was expecting.”
I was shattered, to put it mildly. Now, over the course of more than 20 years, not one peep out of me over his expanding waist, his disappearing hair, his white beard – nothing but love and support because, unfortunately, that’s who I am.

I’m no longer with him, and I’m no longer a 2/4/6; I can no longer work out the way I love, because of health issues. I hate the way I look, I hate the way I feel, I hate that I can’t work out. I’m unbelievably lucky, though, in the love of my life. He met me at my thinnest and my most fit, and it had, actually, nothing to do with why he fell in love with me. He said to me at the time that he wouldn’t care if I weighed 90 pounds or 300, he loved me. You know what he says now? He wouldn’t care if I weighed 90 pounds or 300, he loves me. He does his best to be supportive, but he has trouble understanding why I’m so berserk, because he thinks I’m beautiful. And he says it to me. He says it to me when I’m dressed to go to a wedding. He says it when I’m dressed for work. He says it when I roll out of bed at ohdarkthirty, stunned and owl-eyed from fatigue, looking as if I’ve been dragged through a bush backwards. He says it to me regardless of whether I’m made up or not, whether I’m shaved or not. He loves my long hair; he also says it’s my hair, and I need to do what makes me comfortable, whether it’s long or super-short or somewhere in between, and that his opinion shouldn’t be a factor in my decision. In the brief years we’ve been together, we’ve both been through a lot, including physical changes – gains, losses, mobility, health. He was not one fraction less attractive to me when he gained weight, or was less muscular than when we met. Did I notice the changes? Yes, because I’m hyperaware of him. Was he less attractive? Hell, no. Is a bud more attractive than an open rose? Not to me. It’s all just part of the cycle.

[Genevieve]

Thanks Jody - and Dolley. And Moxie (I commented over at your blog - a really long comment - so I forgot to say thank you too). You all covered it eloquently.

[chris]

Well, I've read all the MIM stuff, and honestly, I think she has issues. Hopefully, she won't pass them onto her daughter.

And what about men? They say 50% of all men over 50 have erectile dysfunction. Should a woman divorce her husband if that happens? Because a 50% shot means things aren't looking good for most men.

Sorry for writing about ED on your blog.

[Rose]

I could kiss you. This is the first post on the subject that I have read that makes any sense to me whatsoever.

[JustLinda]

New to your blog, followed a link from somewhere. :)

Great post on the topic. I, like many, had a visceral reaction to the original thread (partially the post, partially some of the comments) and finding balanced and well-written responses has helped to dissipate some of my perplexing anger.

Thanks again.

[momzom]

I think because the original post was about bodies and weight, it obscured the deeper and to me more interesting issue of: What do you do X years into the marriage, with X kids running around, when your spouse lets you down? When he gains weight or is pissed off that you did? When he is disappointed that the dreams of 20 years ago haven't materialized and can't get beyond it, or you can't get beyond that he fell off the golden trajectory that he'd been on when you married him? Or vice versa? Or he stops dancing or running or reading hard books or cooking or doing all the things that you valued doing together because he just lost steam or moved on to other things, or works all the time, or... Or you stopped laughing and started stomping around A LOT because dammit dishwashers don't unload themselves and sheets don't leap into the dryer and you hate folding and you want some sleep and dammit no I cannot play with the damn trains right now because I am PISSED OFF.

Of course a disappointed spouse has a responsibility to look inward and say, Is this fair, how would I feel if the situation were reversed, etc. and move on or around or confront the issue. But there's still the immovable, adamantine fact of disappointment in marriage. People change, or children reveal (over and over and over) shortcomings you didn't know you had. My dear husband is a jerk in some ways, and I'm a raving lunatic in some ways. Who knew? Who knew that I would organize three evenings a week around taking out the garbage?

And what do we do now? To me that's the deep and compelling question to which I have no answer. I think a lot of this discussion has been about the illegitimacy of disappointment with a woman's changed appearance. The husbands/partners (love you, mamacate) shouldn't be disappointed. Okay, but what if they are? What do you do with that? I'm not sure that saying "You have no right to feel that way" is helpful. Feelings are damn ungovernable (like toddlers that never grow up).

I can see my way to saying, "I'm disappointed in you, and I love you." But I'm not sure I would believe it if my husband said it to me.

Maybe this post is a long way of saying, I got over my eating disorder, but I still have a serious disappointment disorder (fear of being d'd, fear of d-ing), and I bet a lot of us do, and what do we do now?

[Tulip]

When MIM has triplets at age 40, with the infamous 40-something metabolism, and when she has no childcare options AT ALL AND NO WAY OR TIME TO WORK OUT (in no small part due to a non-cooperative spouse), then we'll talk about weight. Until then she is just a sweet-young thing with a degree in psychologoy that she apparently believes confers upon her the ability to accurately perceive and diagnose the ills of all the world.

It's very simple to just say weight gain is due to depression & lack of self-esteem. It's a very convenient way to pigeon-hole people and move on with a heightened sense of self-satisfaction. It's a nice way to not look at the deeper issues of life, many of which are ugly and not nice. And a nice way to deny that our bodies change as we grow older. Back when I was in my early 30's I could easily control my weight, too.

There is soooo much more to self-respect or depression than the number on the scale. Geez Louise, isn't that obvious? Once again I recall the Bible verse that says man(kind) looks on the outside, but God looks at our hearts. Isn't our self-respect in our hearts? It is in mine. AND THE RESPECT I FEEL TOWARDS OTHERFS IS BASED ON WHAT'S IN THEIR HEARTS, NOT THE SIZE OF THEIR ASS.

[Rachel]

To echo everyone else - thanks for this, and for the distinction between weight gain and body changes. Fair disclosure: to use your expression, I have no dog in this fight, since I always was underweight, and I'm back now this way after giving birth. Not my choice - I'd die for some voluptuosity - but it's the body I'm stuck with. Except, as everyone knows, that body might be 100 pounds, but it's not the same as it was before swelling up by 50%. So the husband has expressed some disapointment in the loss of the pristine belly button. I'm with him. I miss it too. But we both accept that it's gone as the dodo, and it's been a good trade off.

[patricia]

I agree that anything is better than an eating disorder.

But it also feels great to feel healthy. And if I am more than 10 pounds over what I regard as my ideal weight, then I feel heavy, literally and psychologically. I think as long you are comfortable with your weight, and feel good, then more power to you. But I know that I don't feel good at a certain point.

I have a very healthy relationship with food (just finished off two chocolate chip cookies.) but I tend to know when it's starting to make me feel bad rather than good.

[Lisa C.]

Brava Jody! This whole shitstorm started when I was halfway over the Atlantic, so I'm just now getting around to giving kudos to all the smart women who gave MIM a virtual slap upside the head.

You are awesome and beautiful. I don't have to see you to know it! What matters is on the inside, in my humble opinion.

[ABDmom]

Great post. Just great.